WTD: advice/info - just about OT I think :-) - bit of a quandry ...

[Martin Slaney]

I ordered a recycled PIII machine from a well-known trader here for a
client of mine re-vamping a small 3 user office. The machine normally
shipped with a 8GB drive, but as this box is intended to fulfill a
"pseudo-server" role (well, just a centralised data store really), I
asked for a 20GB disk instead - which the trader obligingly fitted for a
small amount extra.

So - machine arrives - but the Maxtor 20GB IDE disk is making the
dreaded clunking noises of death - can't format it etc.
Most likely got booted around by the courier - well this happens.
I call the trader - who does the decent thing and sends a timely
replacement - no probs there ....

BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -
aaaargh !! It has a IBM sticker saying something like "This drive is
tested for compatibilty with IBM machines bla bla bla" - could this be
corporate gobbledy-gook for "this is not one of the duff ones" ?

Well I've just connected the drive - seems to be working fine right now.
But - given the reqd role for this machine ... what to do ?

I'm having a bit of trouble finding detailed info now on the Fujitsu
fiasco - ISTR not all the 20GB drives were affected. Anyone know the
range of exact serial numbers or sub-model numbers that were affected ?
It seems Fujitsu were saying the grief relates to "prolonged use" (!!)
This is exactly what I need from this drive - to be on all day every day
- maximum reliability is vital.

Hmmm .... should I ask the trader for another drive ? (I don't know if
the trader or his staff are aware of the extent of the Fujitsu fiasco).
I'm e-mailing him about this right now ...

I should say I will probably settle for having to replace the drive with
a new one, without feeling hard-done-by re the trader ....

TIA.

[Tez Burke]

Martin Slaney come on down!

Post by Martin Slaney
I'm having a bit of trouble finding detailed info now on the Fujitsu
fiasco - ISTR not all the 20GB drives were affected. Anyone know the
range of exact serial numbers or sub-model numbers that were affected ?
It seems Fujitsu were saying the grief relates to "prolonged use" (!!)

IIRC, it was mostly the 10GB Fujitsu drives from that range that were
affected rather than the 20GB ones, all three of the 10GB drives we had
at work were kaput within 9 months. AFAIK most of the 20's were fine. Be
that as it may I'd much rather have a Maxtor or a Seagate or something!

Tez.

[Kez]

Post by Tez Burke
Martin Slaney come on down!

Post by Martin Slaney
I'm having a bit of trouble finding detailed info now on the Fujitsu
fiasco - ISTR not all the 20GB drives were affected. Anyone know the
range of exact serial numbers or sub-model numbers that were affected ?
It seems Fujitsu were saying the grief relates to "prolonged use" (!!)

IIRC, it was mostly the 10GB Fujitsu drives from that range that were
affected rather than the 20GB ones, all three of the 10GB drives we had
at work were kaput within 9 months. AFAIK most of the 20's were fine. Be
that as it may I'd much rather have a Maxtor or a Seagate or something!

i have a 13GB fujitsu that's been fine for the past 3 years

[Andy]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:55:48 +0000, Martin Slaney

Post by Martin Slaney
I'm having a bit of trouble finding detailed info now on the Fujitsu
fiasco -

Look here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/27268.html
--

Andy

[Andy]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:03:21 +0000,

Post by Andy
Look here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/27268.html

The faulty sub component referred to above is a Cirrus Logic
controller chip (CL-SH8671-450E-A3)
--

Andy

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney
I ordered a recycled PIII machine from a well-known trader here for a
client of mine re-vamping a small 3 user office. The machine normally
shipped with a 8GB drive, but as this box is intended to fulfill a
"pseudo-server" role (well, just a centralised data store really), I
asked for a 20GB disk instead - which the trader obligingly fitted for a
small amount extra.
So - machine arrives - but the Maxtor 20GB IDE disk is making the
dreaded clunking noises of death - can't format it etc.
Most likely got booted around by the courier - well this happens.
I call the trader - who does the decent thing and sends a timely
replacement - no probs there ....
BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -
aaaargh !! It has a IBM sticker saying something like "This drive is
tested for compatibilty with IBM machines bla bla bla" - could this be
corporate gobbledy-gook for "this is not one of the duff ones" ?
Well I've just connected the drive - seems to be working fine right now.
But - given the reqd role for this machine ... what to do ?
I'm having a bit of trouble finding detailed info now on the Fujitsu
fiasco - ISTR not all the 20GB drives were affected. Anyone know the
range of exact serial numbers or sub-model numbers that were affected ?
It seems Fujitsu were saying the grief relates to "prolonged use" (!!)
This is exactly what I need from this drive - to be on all day every day
- maximum reliability is vital.
Hmmm .... should I ask the trader for another drive ? (I don't know if
the trader or his staff are aware of the extent of the Fujitsu fiasco).
I'm e-mailing him about this right now ...
I should say I will probably settle for having to replace the drive with
a new one, without feeling hard-done-by re the trader ....
TIA.

I flatly refuse to touch Fujitsu or IBM (hitachi now too) hard drives, if I
am about to buy a box from someone I ask what hard drive is fitted, if I
don't ask then I get exactly what paid for, eg a 40gig 5400rpm job.

The person who sold you the box has done nothing wrong, in fact they have
already been helpful (whoever they were) whereas you appear to be unhappy
with a perfectly legit deal....
--
Merry Yule
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EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
I ordered a recycled PIII machine from a well-known trader here for a
client of mine re-vamping a small 3 user office. The machine normally
shipped with a 8GB drive, but as this box is intended to fulfill a
"pseudo-server" role (well, just a centralised data store really), I
asked for a 20GB disk instead - which the trader obligingly fitted for a
small amount extra.
So - machine arrives - but the Maxtor 20GB IDE disk is making the
dreaded clunking noises of death - can't format it etc.
Most likely got booted around by the courier - well this happens.
I call the trader - who does the decent thing and sends a timely
replacement - no probs there ....
BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -
aaaargh !! It has a IBM sticker saying something like "This drive is
tested for compatibilty with IBM machines bla bla bla" - could this be
corporate gobbledy-gook for "this is not one of the duff ones" ?
Well I've just connected the drive - seems to be working fine right now.
But - given the reqd role for this machine ... what to do ?
I'm having a bit of trouble finding detailed info now on the Fujitsu
fiasco - ISTR not all the 20GB drives were affected. Anyone know the
range of exact serial numbers or sub-model numbers that were affected ?
It seems Fujitsu were saying the grief relates to "prolonged use" (!!)
This is exactly what I need from this drive - to be on all day every day
- maximum reliability is vital.
Hmmm .... should I ask the trader for another drive ? (I don't know if
the trader or his staff are aware of the extent of the Fujitsu fiasco).
I'm e-mailing him about this right now ...
I should say I will probably settle for having to replace the drive with
a new one, without feeling hard-done-by re the trader ....
TIA.

I flatly refuse to touch Fujitsu or IBM (hitachi now too) hard drives, if I
am about to buy a box from someone I ask what hard drive is fitted, if I
don't ask then I get exactly what paid for, eg a 40gig 5400rpm job.

Indeed - I did not ask/specify brand of HD.

Post by Guy Fawkes
The person who sold you the box has done nothing wrong, in fact they have
already been helpful (whoever they were) whereas you appear to be unhappy
with a perfectly legit deal....

I am not "unhappy". Please see the last paragraph of my original post.

Other folk have kindly replied with tech info (which is what I was
actually asking for) that leads me to think the Fujitsu disk supplied
will be OK.

[No-one]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:55:48 +0000, Martin Slaney

Post by Martin Slaney
Well I've just connected the drive - seems to be working fine right now.
But - given the reqd role for this machine ... what to do ?

If this drive is to store your client's business data, no matter what
make of hard drive you have, you invest heavily in backup strategies,
including off-site storage. Any make of drive can fail or be damaged
from a multitude of causes.

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Andy
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:55:48 +0000, Martin Slaney

Post by Martin Slaney
Well I've just connected the drive - seems to be working fine right now.
But - given the reqd role for this machine ... what to do ?

If this drive is to store your client's business data, no matter what
make of hard drive you have, you invest heavily in backup strategies,
including off-site storage. Any make of drive can fail or be damaged
from a multitude of causes.

Well yes of course. The _really_ important data here is from Sage
Accounts ... fits quite happily on a 100MB ZIP disk, and will do for
quite a while. He backs that up religiously - twice a day - has done for
years - from within Sage's built-in backup dialogues. He takes a second
backup on 100MB ZIP home every night also .... if that data were
"insurable" - it would proboably be for several tens of £k -
budgetting/finance/costing for several high-profile glossy TV series.

Its the other - less important - word, excel, e-mail data that I'm
concerning myself with - it'll grow .... CDR backup once/twice a week
should be fine for that.

But anyway - the drive still needs to be as reliable as possible -
restoring from backups would cost quite a bit of downtime.

I've told him a tape sub-system, SCSI i/f, cost of Veritas, all the
setup etc. is probably not really appropriate.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Andy
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:55:48 +0000, Martin Slaney

Post by Martin Slaney
Well I've just connected the drive - seems to be working fine right now.
But - given the reqd role for this machine ... what to do ?

If this drive is to store your client's business data, no matter what
make of hard drive you have, you invest heavily in backup strategies,
including off-site storage. Any make of drive can fail or be damaged
from a multitude of causes.

Well yes of course. The _really_ important data here is from Sage
Accounts ... fits quite happily on a 100MB ZIP disk, and will do for
quite a while. He backs that up religiously - twice a day - has done for
years - from within Sage's built-in backup dialogues. He takes a second
backup on 100MB ZIP home every night also .... if that data were
"insurable" - it would proboably be for several tens of £k -
budgetting/finance/costing for several high-profile glossy TV series.

I have to say, for someone who admits they are selling their client a tool
to do a job you appear to know bugger all, hence coming in here asking for
advice instead of simply going out and doing what needs doing....

selling clients second user hard drives for what by definition is going to
be business data bloody reeks of incompetence... sorry, had to be said.

Post by Martin Slaney
Its the other - less important - word, excel, e-mail data that I'm
concerning myself with - it'll grow .... CDR backup once/twice a week
should be fine for that.

backups are totally worthless unless they are both
a/ offsite and automated
b/ ***proven*** to work from a virgin restore.

Post by Martin Slaney
But anyway - the drive still needs to be as reliable as possible -
restoring from backups would cost quite a bit of downtime.

then WTF are you doing buying s/user drives and running anything less than
RAID 1 or preferably 5?

hard drives are so bloody cheap nowadays, buy them direct, new.

Post by Martin Slaney
I've told him a tape sub-system, SCSI i/f, cost of Veritas, all the
setup etc. is probably not really appropriate.

because it isn't or because you dont know much about it and dont want to
touch it?
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

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Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Paul-B]

Post by Guy Fawkes
I have to say, for someone who admits they are selling their client a
tool to do a job you appear to know bugger all, hence coming in here
asking for advice instead of simply going out and doing what needs
doing....
selling clients second user hard drives for what by definition is
going to be business data bloody reeks of incompetence... sorry, had
to be said.

Couldn't agree more. New 40-gig hard drives are only around £35 or so,
why scrimp on what is probably the most important part of the system?
Get a RAID mobo, they're cheap enough and use a minimum of RAID 1,
mirrored, preferably with a controller which will allow you to hot-swap.

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
Its the other - less important - word, excel, e-mail data that I'm
concerning myself with - it'll grow .... CDR backup once/twice a
week should be fine for that.

backups are totally worthless unless they are both
a/ offsite and automated
b/ proven to work from a virgin restore.

Post by Martin Slaney
But anyway - the drive still needs to be as reliable as possible -
restoring from backups would cost quite a bit of downtime.

then WTF are you doing buying s/user drives and running anything less
than RAID 1 or preferably 5?
hard drives are so bloody cheap nowadays, buy them direct, new.

Post by Martin Slaney
I've told him a tape sub-system, SCSI i/f, cost of Veritas, all the
setup etc. is probably not really appropriate.

because it isn't or because you dont know much about it and dont want
to touch it?

It continually amazes me that businesses who would go bust if they lost
their data look askance at spending a few hundred pounds to buy
something which would save their businesses if things went wrong. A
decent RAID board, 2 80Gb hard drives is going to add no more than £100
or so to a build. Throw in a 12/24Gb HP tape drive at around £200 and a
dozen tapes at a £4 a piece and £300 for Veritas (user-unfriendly but
the best) and you've got about as good an insurance policy as you could
want for under £700... not a lot to save your business.

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Paul-B
Couldn't agree more. New 40-gig hard drives are only around £35 or so,
why scrimp on what is probably the most important part of the system?

I was not "scrimping" on the price of a HD. The used Maxtor 20GB would
statistically be no less reliable than a new 40GB.

Post by Paul-B
Get a RAID mobo, they're cheap enough and use a minimum of RAID 1,
mirrored, preferably with a controller which will allow you to hot-swap.

RAID mobo ? You mean ATA-RAID ? Reliable ? Hmmmmmm .....

Post by Paul-B
It continually amazes me that businesses who would go bust if they lost
their data look askance at spending a few hundred pounds to buy
something which would save their businesses if things went wrong. A
decent RAID board, 2 80Gb hard drives is going to add no more than £100
or so to a build. Throw in a 12/24Gb HP tape drive at around £200 and a
dozen tapes at a £4 a piece and £300 for Veritas (user-unfriendly but
the best) and you've got about as good an insurance policy as you could
want for under £700... not a lot to save your business.

These sound to me like secondhand prices. I'd trust a secondhand DDS-3
drive and media a good deal less than a secondhand HD. And if you "throw
in" a sub-system like this - grief will surely ensue. Seen it often.
Veritas is not (in my _very_ humble opinion) appropriate for
non-technical users who do not have/want regular site visits or
maintenance contracts.

If they have a proven system to backup in an adequate way (in this case
they _do_ ) leave it be.

Phah !! I've seen too may situations where clients' previous tech bods
have set up inappropriate systems like this "because its the industry
standard" and had to try and clean up the mess.

[Paul-B]

Post by Martin Slaney
These sound to me like secondhand prices. I'd trust a secondhand
DDS-3 drive and media a good deal less than a secondhand HD.

Nope, all of them new prices. Most trade suppliers sell 80Gb
Maxtor/WD/Seagate hard drives for around £40 each. I've built upwards
of 150 systems for small businesses based around ATA RAID over the past
4 years without a single failure. Use a top-quality board
(Asus/Abit/Intel) and the chances of problems are pretty remote. Sure,
drives fail, I've had one go recently but a hot-swap replacement took
less than an hour from start to finish. Sony DDS3 Tape drives cost me
around £550 each new from my trade supplier, including Veritas Backup
Exec and 10 tapes.

Post by Martin Slaney
And if
you "throw in" a sub-system like this - grief will surely ensue. Seen
it often. Veritas is not (in my very humble opinion) appropriate for
non-technical users who do not have/want regular site visits or
maintenance contracts.

Veritas is quirky and needs to be properly set up, but it's the best;
if you know a better one please let me know.

Post by Martin Slaney
If they have a proven system to backup in an adequate way (in this
case they do ) leave it be.
Phah !! I've seen too may situations where clients' previous tech
bods have set up inappropriate systems like this "because its the
industry standard" and had to try and clean up the mess.

Well, so far in over 4 years of trading and building systems and
networks I've yet to have to go back to a client to "clean up the
mess". I certainly wouldn't aven thing about using either new or
secondhand Fujitsu drives in a mission-critical environment.

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Paul-B

Post by Martin Slaney
These sound to me like secondhand prices. I'd trust a secondhand
DDS-3 drive and media a good deal less than a secondhand HD.

Nope, all of them new prices. Most trade suppliers sell 80Gb
Maxtor/WD/Seagate hard drives for around £40 each. I've built upwards
of 150 systems for small businesses based around ATA RAID over the past
4 years without a single failure. Use a top-quality board
(Asus/Abit/Intel) and the chances of problems are pretty remote. Sure,

Well I've not had any real truck with ATA RAID, I have to say. But I've
heard a few tales of woe about them. Admittedly, I think its usually
from overclocking kiddies trying to use RAID-0 etc.....

Post by Paul-B
drives fail, I've had one go recently but a hot-swap replacement took
less than an hour from start to finish. Sony DDS3 Tape drives cost me
around £550 each new from my trade supplier, including Veritas Backup
Exec and 10 tapes.

OK - well thats a good deal cheaper than I've had the time/inclination
to track down. Which version of veritas ? Any support with it ?

Post by Paul-B

Post by Martin Slaney
And if
you "throw in" a sub-system like this - grief will surely ensue. Seen
it often. Veritas is not (in my very humble opinion) appropriate for
non-technical users who do not have/want regular site visits or
maintenance contracts.

Veritas is quirky and needs to be properly set up, but it's the best;
if you know a better one please let me know.

Well I don't disagree in general, but - in _this_ case - the
mission-critical data is around 20-30-40MB. It fits on a ZIP disk.
The client has been using ZIP disks for years. He _does_ back up -
including off-site.
He doesn't _want_ to change that. It has never failed him (yet <g>). He
also restores those off-site backups to another machine at home BTW. I
did indeed question the reliability of that media - but he _wants_ to
keep things that way. He's the client - it's _his_ call - yes ?

Would you _still_ insist to him that he should have a 80GB RAID system,
and a 12/24GB tape system that would need constant external
monitoring/supervision, that he wouldn't understand himself, and that
would cost him at the very least 1000 quid ?

I have already recommended that a more comprehensive way to backup is
via a DDS drive - but after explaining about the need for a SCSI bus,
one or more tape drives, the media, the s/w, the configs and scheduling,
the fact that the tape drive is _not_ just a "drive letter", and "no you
can't just drag files off it with Windows explorer", _he_ decided not to
bother. I then explained to him that other backup methods e.g. a
bi-weekly (or even daily) CDR backup of the other data sets (e-mail,
word docs etc.) would actually be OK. I _did_ question his notion of
"naaah, the e-mail and word docs really aren't very important". I said
are you _sure_ ? "Yep" I said "are you really, really sure ? "Yes,
definitely".

My conclusion :- CDR backup will do then (for the "non-important" data).
I am not contracted to guarantee his data - its up to him.


Soooo - is this OK with you ?

[Paul-B]

Post by Martin Slaney
OK - well thats a good deal cheaper than I've had the
time/inclination to track down. Which version of veritas ? Any
support with it ?

I buy the drives 5 at a time from CT Connections in Connecticut, USA.
Their trade price to me is USD 650, by the time they're here they cost
around £500 - £550, depending on exchange rate etc. 10 Sony tapes,
Veritas Desktop or, for an extra USD60 I can have Veritas Single Server
9.0.

The drives are supported by Sony UK, never had to use them. Veritas is
registerable, again I've never had to use Veritas support, so can't
comment.

The point is that secondhand hard-drives in mission-critical
applications are corner-cutting for the sake of saving about £20, maybe
less. In the end it's up to the customer how he/she backs up, but I
would not even consider dealing with someone who insists on using this
kind of component, my experience has been that if the customer wants to
cut corners to save a few quid it's *me* who has to fix the mess.

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Paul-B
The point is that secondhand hard-drives in mission-critical
applications are corner-cutting for the sake of saving about £20, maybe
less.

I am not, and never would corner-cut for the sake of 20 quid. Neither
would the client expect or want me to.

But I'm saying I "specced" a good-quality used corporate PIII machine as
being entirely adequate for the job in hand. The HD will get a couple of
days of testing by me before it gets commissioned into use. If there's
any doubt whatsoever about its functionality e.g. clonks, bad sectors
etc. - it will get replaced with a new one. The capacity is more than
ample for the job in hand. I still maintain that - and its an empirical
view - that I've had as much trouble with new drives as (good) used ones.

Incidentally, someone in the next office - we were nattering a bit -
wanting a PC for office work - said "naaah, I want a new machine".
She's tried to order it from Dell - and is having to jump through hoops
just to bloody-well _order_ it - let alone _receive_ it. The used PIII
box is now here - in the flesh - v. soon ready for its job. I know the
trader it came from can deliver a PC a good deal quicker and easier than
Dell, HP et al.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Paul-B
The point is that secondhand hard-drives in mission-critical
applications are corner-cutting for the sake of saving about £20, maybe
less.

I am not, and never would corner-cut for the sake of 20 quid. Neither
would the client expect or want me to.
But I'm saying I "specced" a good-quality used corporate PIII machine as
being entirely adequate for the job in hand.

then you accept the guilt in entirety.

Post by Martin Slaney
The HD will get a couple of
days of testing by me before it gets commissioned into use.

wow, not a weeks soak testing with read / write parity checking then....

you are doing the IT equivalent of buying a second hand motor for use as a
taxi snd accepting the mot certificate as proof enough that it is safe
enough for passenger transportation..... cowboy.

Post by Martin Slaney
If there's
any doubt whatsoever about its functionality e.g. clonks, bad sectors
etc.

there is no doubt, it is used and it is also a solitary disk....

Post by Martin Slaney
- it will get replaced with a new one. The capacity is more than
ample for the job in hand. I still maintain that - and its an empirical
view - that I've had as much trouble with new drives as (good) used ones.

mechanics and their tools perhaps.

Post by Martin Slaney
Incidentally, someone in the next office - we were nattering a bit -
wanting a PC for office work - said "naaah, I want a new machine".
She's tried to order it from Dell - and is having to jump through hoops
just to bloody-well _order_ it - let alone _receive_ it. The used PIII
box is now here - in the flesh - v. soon ready for its job. I know the
trader it came from can deliver a PC a good deal quicker and easier than
Dell, HP et al.

lmfao...
5 years ago dell made decent quality desktop boxes, they still werent
anything like good enough for last line data integrity, nowadays dell kit
is just shite.
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[John Jordan]

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
- it will get replaced with a new one. The capacity is more than
ample for the job in hand. I still maintain that - and its an empirical
view - that I've had as much trouble with new drives as (good) used ones.

mechanics and their tools perhaps.

I read through a sample of the storagereview.com database once, and my
conclusion was that HDs are by far the most likely to fail during their
first three months of usage. Quite reasonable really - consider factors
such as delivery damage, overheating or imperfect quality control.

A 3-month old HD is probably more reliable than a 3-year old one, but
then they're not so easy to obtain. Ideally you'd buy a new drive and
test it viciously for a few weeks, but that's not necessarily cost-
effective for a small business. And there are some pretty small
businesses around...

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by John Jordan

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
- it will get replaced with a new one. The capacity is more than
ample for the job in hand. I still maintain that - and its an empirical
view - that I've had as much trouble with new drives as (good) used ones.

mechanics and their tools perhaps.

I read through a sample of the storagereview.com database once, and my
conclusion was that HDs are by far the most likely to fail during their
first three months of usage. Quite reasonable really - consider factors
such as delivery damage, overheating or imperfect quality control.
A 3-month old HD is probably more reliable than a 3-year old one, but
then they're not so easy to obtain. Ideally you'd buy a new drive and
test it viciously for a few weeks, but that's not necessarily cost-
effective for a small business. And there are some pretty small
businesses around...

the actual data that is only inferred there because it is a known fact
amongst the pros is...

('after you install a new hard disk') it is far more likely to fail during
the first three months than at any other time before its MTBF.

this is NOT analagous to installing an already second user disk.

HTH
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Guy Fawkes
the actual data that is only inferred there because it is a known fact
amongst the pros is...

blather, blather ....

Earlier you seem to have implied that a client of mine (or I, were I
contracted to supply "comprehensive IT solutions" - which I am not)
- who is basically a one-man-band with 2 temporary assistants in a small
temporary office using 2/3 apps generating tiny amounts of data, and no
desire for contractual arrangements wrt his computer equipment - should
be considering "perfect storm scenarios" and "nuclear bunkers".

If thats not the case - and your input at this stage had become merely
academic - then even though you propose some perfectly valid technical
arguments, the manner of their delivery makes you a self-important,
pompous ass.

You lambast my thinking on the subject - thats OK - you have a perfect
right to do that - but you make blanket statements about what kind of
equipment "should be used" for "business data" - without any knowledge
of the wider circumstances that pertain here. If you _really_ can't
understand that computer equipment - like any other part of office
infrastructure - has to be scaled to meet many requirements and
parameters, then you, sir, are a pig-headed, one-dimensional,
self-important, pompous ass.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
the actual data that is only inferred there because it is a known fact
amongst the pros is...

blather, blather ....

ooh, here comes the ankle biter, still stinging from his last sojourn, still
unable to admit that he is wrong / second rate.

Post by Martin Slaney
Earlier you seem to have implied that a client of mine (or I, were I
contracted to supply "comprehensive IT solutions" - which I am not)

you are, as are all (supposed) tradesmen, contracted to supply your best
experience and knowledge.... though it seems in your case the needls is
stuck in the groove and you like it that way.

Post by Martin Slaney
- who is basically a one-man-band with 2 temporary assistants in a small
temporary office using 2/3 apps generating tiny amounts of data, and no
desire for contractual arrangements wrt his computer equipment - should
be considering "perfect storm scenarios" and "nuclear bunkers".

80% of companies that suffer majot data loss cease trading withing 12
months. your client is presumably an expert in his business, he is not an
expert in IT, nor is he in a position to judge the difference between an
expert and a bumbling fool, which is why he is still your client.

the cost of a small raid array and proper backup solution can be less than
500 quid all in, any business that cannot afford 500 quid every 3 or 4
years (two dirst class stamps per day) to ensure it has proper data backups
isn't a business of any kind, it is some spotty kid in his bedroom knocking
out warez porn dvd's to his mates... if he is employing people even on a
part time basis he is legally bound to adhere to certain laws that cost FAR
FAR FAR more per annum than 2 first class stamps a day...

for example if he has premises he must have insurance, if the public have
access he must have public liability insurance, if he has employees he must
have employee insurance, he cannot choose to open a corner shop an make do
with no insurance or a third party only 80 quid a year motor policy...

he has responsobolities, legal ones, to all sorts of people including
suppliers and customers, and he has legal responsobilities if he is using
IT in a workplace enviornment.... just for starters, have these second hand
mains electric powered computers that you have supplied him been tested and
passed by an approved electrical engineer for human safety after you have
been pissing about with them?

if I tell a gas engineer to install a new combi boiler and let me worry
about the flue he will tell me to piss off, if I tell him joe bloggs the
plumber will do it he will tell me (correctly) that in that case joe bloggs
is at best an incompetent cowboy, because no gas engineer worth *anything*
would even dream of doing such crap work.

you appear to have only one concern, doing absolute crap work whiel letting
the client specify that work in areas they aren't competent to do so, while
refusing to even consider the possibility of standing your ground with the
client because you might lose ten quid profit.... that's fine, there are a
million other cowboy I "experts" out there just like you, but if you think
you can post to a public forum where one or two people ARE professionals
and yet not have them be allowed to observe that you are a cowboy you are
sadly mistaken.

Post by Martin Slaney
If thats not the case - and your input at this stage had become merely
academic - then even though you propose some perfectly valid technical
arguments, the manner of their delivery makes you a self-important,
pompous ass.

my input throughout was purely academic, it has been many many many years
since I was so ignorant that I had to seriously consider "bottom feeding"
jobs where the entire budget was two and six... I still sometimes do jobs
like the one you describe, but I do them PROPERLY and make zero charge on
the condition that I spend some time educating the client... sometimes you
get a very good client out of it, either directly or by recommendation.

Post by Martin Slaney
You lambast my thinking on the subject - thats OK - you have a perfect
right to do that - but you make blanket statements about what kind of
equipment "should be used" for "business data" - without any knowledge
of the wider circumstances that pertain here.

absolute rot, I know all that I need to know, it is a business.
it doesn't matter one iota if it is a one man band or a multinational, many
of the people in this newsgroup are little more than one man bands, yet
their work / business / clients / mony / times are probably more important
to them than to the ceo of a multinational.
that is ALL you need to know, that and having some pride in your work.
these people deserve the best you have to offer in exchange for their
folding green, the very best, not your bloody cowboy attitudes.

Post by Martin Slaney
If you _really_ can't
understand that computer equipment - like any other part of office
infrastructure - has to be scaled to meet many requirements and
parameters, then you, sir, are a pig-headed, one-dimensional,
self-important, pompous ass.

did I at any time propose a globally distributed cluster of blade servers
running oracle or some such shit?
no
all I said was (quite correctly) that giving some poor bastard a single
second hand IDE device was fucking amateur night, and it is...

if you are so concerned about the poor bastards IT requirements being met by
APPROPRIATE solutions then tell the poor fucker he can junk windows with
all its security problems and extortionate licences and upgrade every
computer in the premises by 100% with the money saved in one year alone.

there is a "pig-headed, one-dimensional,self-important, pompous ass" in this
thread, and it ain't me.
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
- who is basically a one-man-band with 2 temporary assistants in a small
temporary office using 2/3 apps generating tiny amounts of data, and no
desire for contractual arrangements wrt his computer equipment - should
be considering "perfect storm scenarios" and "nuclear bunkers".

80% of companies that suffer majot data loss cease trading withing 12
months.

Pasted in from someone's advertising bumpf :-) Thought I recognised it.
Its just one of those stats that can say anything you want it to -
commonly used by the likes of Tony Blair's spin doctors.

Post by Guy Fawkes
the cost of a small raid array and proper backup solution can be less than
500 quid all in, any business that cannot afford 500 quid every 3 or 4
years (two dirst class stamps per day) to ensure it has proper data backups
isn't a business of any kind,

Except that its not really 500 quid, or anything near - is it ? If its
running a version of M$ *** server that'll double it. Plus licensing
backup s/w. Plus setup costs. Plus ongoing administration/maintenance
costs. And I do assure you - he would _not_ want it running a *NIX. He
needs to - as far as possible - be in personal control of the setup. But
the costs are not really the point _anyway_ .

Earlier on I mentioned "other circumstances of which you know nothing"
didn't I ? You didn't bother to listen or enquire about that did you ?
No - thats just the way you are.

Well - one of them is this :- From time to time, he is required to go on
location with the crew, and continue operations with a laptop or two,
living and working (usually) in caravans or hotel rooms. The Sage
dataset gets copied via ZIP disk to the laptop(s). So you are now,
presumably, going to tell me that he must take his chunky RAID-equipped
server, monitor, UPS, cabling and whole shabang with him in the caravan,
yes ? The rest of the crew are going to just _love_ those multiple SCSI
disks screeching away 24/7, and the generator that needs to be on all
night <g>. If he _doesn't_ take that with him - how's he going to back
up ? We have to assume that the nearest nuclear bunker is some
considerable distance away. And as for the extra caravan reqd for the
security guards to patrol around it all night ....

Post by Guy Fawkes
it is some spotty kid in his bedroom knocking
out warez porn dvd's to his mates...

Good one :-) I'll tell him about that - I'm sure it'll raise a few smiles.

[some irrelevant drivel about plumbers cut]

Post by Guy Fawkes
you appear to have only one concern, doing absolute crap work whiel letting
the client specify that work in areas they aren't competent to do so, while
refusing to even consider the possibility of standing your ground with the
client because you might lose ten quid profit.... that's fine, there are a
million other cowboy I "experts" out there just like you, but if you think
you can post to a public forum where one or two people ARE professionals
and yet not have them be allowed to observe that you are a cowboy you are
sadly mistaken.

I don't quite understand this paragraph - could you re-type it in
English please ? Well - I understand enough of it to glean that you are
accusing me of being a cowboy. Now that (to me) implies deception of
some kind.
What grounds do you have to accuse me of deceiving this bloke ?

Post by Guy Fawkes
absolute rot, I know all that I need to know, it is a business.
it doesn't matter one iota if it is a one man band or a multinational, many
of the people in this newsgroup are little more than one man bands, yet
their work / business / clients / mony / times are probably more important
to them than to the ceo of a multinational.
that is ALL you need to know, that and having some pride in your work.
these people deserve the best you have to offer in exchange for their
folding green, the very best, not your bloody cowboy attitudes.

You do _not_ know all you need to know. Businesses are many and varied.
You don't even listen to anyone else - do you ? You just trot out your
dogma. Pompous ass.

Post by Guy Fawkes
if you are so concerned about the poor bastards IT requirements being met by
APPROPRIATE solutions then tell the poor fucker he can junk windows with

I'm no great fan of M$ bollocks either, but in this case there's no
choice. He _requires_ Sage. Sage _only_ runs on M$ Windows (AFAIK).
He backs up the Sage data using a method endorsed and supported by Sage.
(If you really want - you can can substitute the word "archive" for
"backup" - its just that 99.9% of the rest of the world refers to this
particular Sage process as "backup").
I said that before, but you just didn't listen, as usual. That's because
you are a ......

Post by Guy Fawkes
"pig-headed, one-dimensional,self-important, pompous ass"

and it sounds like you will go to your grave as such.

[Martin Slaney]

Ahem - errr ...apologies to all here ... this thread has now gotten out
of control and way off-topic.

If Mr. Guy Fawkes wants to continue mud-slinging, I'll leave him to
suggest another place so to do.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
80% of companies that suffer majot data loss cease trading withing 12
months.

Pasted in from someone's advertising bumpf :-)

no it isn't actually, I'll leave you to name the source, since you know so
much, but suffice it to say they didn't have an axe to grind of a backup
solution to sell.

Post by Martin Slaney
Thought I recognised it.
Its just one of those stats that can say anything you want it to -
commonly used by the likes of Tony Blair's spin doctors.

like "99% of IT experts are monkeys"
just because you don't like it doesn't make it false.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
the cost of a small raid array and proper backup solution can be less
than 500 quid all in, any business that cannot afford 500 quid every 3 or
4 years (two dirst class stamps per day) to ensure it has proper data
backups isn't a business of any kind,

Except that its not really 500 quid, or anything near - is it ?

yes it is, *easily* doable.

Post by Martin Slaney
If its
running a version of M$ *** server that'll double it.

*why* would it run microsoft server?
are you really that totally fucking clueless that you don't know the
difference between data and OS?

Post by Martin Slaney
Plus licensing
backup s/w.

agin, nobody is forcing you to go the windows route, only your own
ignorance.

Post by Martin Slaney
Plus setup costs.

ooh, 20 minutes.. terrible...

Post by Martin Slaney
Plus ongoing administration/maintenance
costs.

what admin costs?

Post by Martin Slaney
And I do assure you - he would _not_ want it running a *NIX.

why not? if he is a clueless as you he wouldn't know the difference
anyway... in fact there's a nice little question for you....

what's the difference between backupfile.xxx being stored on

windows box - fat/fat32/ntfs/ntfs5 - (second hand) ide hard disk

and

nix box - filesystem of choice, ext3 perhaps - ide hard disk

go on smartass, tell us why the operating system makes a difference, tell us
if you know why the filesystem DOES make a difference.....

Post by Martin Slaney
He
needs to - as far as possible - be in personal control of the setup.

so, what's uncontrollable ?

Post by Martin Slaney
But
the costs are not really the point _anyway_ .

no?
wasn't that why you foisted off second user shite on him ????

Post by Martin Slaney
Earlier on I mentioned "other circumstances of which you know nothing"
didn't I ? You didn't bother to listen or enquire about that did you ?
No - thats just the way you are.

I didn't listen because they don't matter.....

Post by Martin Slaney
Well - one of them is this :- From time to time, he is required to go on
location with the crew, and continue operations with a laptop or two,
living and working (usually) in caravans or hotel rooms.

suddenly this guy's budget appears to extend to more than a second hard ide
disk innit.....

Post by Martin Slaney
The Sage
dataset gets copied via ZIP disk to the laptop(s). So you are now,
presumably, going to tell me that he must take his chunky RAID-equipped
server, monitor, UPS, cabling and whole shabang with him in the caravan,
yes ?

how thick can any one person really be?

did you pack up your whole system and cart it off to pipex datacentre to
post this message? dumbass......

the disk doesn't have to be within 30 ide cable centimetres of the user....

Post by Martin Slaney
the rest of the crew are going to just _love_ those multiple SCSI
disks screeching away 24/7,

hey, this guy is turning from a one man band with a couple of part timers
into the francis ford coppola world tour..... can't ANYBODY in this whole
massive tour operation afford a GSM phone to go with their multiple
laptops, crew canteen, key grips, best boys, flatbeds full of gaffer tape,
etc etc etc

Post by Martin Slaney
and the generator that needs to be on all
night <g>. If he _doesn't_ take that with him - how's he going to back
up ?

helloooooooooo the lights are on but there's nobody home.........

TCP/IP is a wonderful thing, unlike you it is not limited to a blackboard
and chalk or a piece of wet string.

Post by Martin Slaney
We have to assume that the nearest nuclear bunker is some
considerable distance away.

however the nearest asylum for escaped lunatics who failed the pissy world
purple shirt buttoning contest and now pass themselves off as IT experts is
presumably quite close by.....

Post by Martin Slaney
And as for the extra caravan reqd for the
security guards to patrol around it all night ....

this guys budget is going through the roof, 2 days ago he was so poor all he
could afford was a hundred quids worth of second pooter with a shagged out
fujitsu disk in it.....

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
it is some spotty kid in his bedroom knocking
out warez porn dvd's to his mates...

Good one :-) I'll tell him about that - I'm sure it'll raise a few smiles.
[some irrelevant drivel about plumbers cut]

hmmmm

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
you appear to have only one concern, doing absolute crap work whiel
letting the client specify that work in areas they aren't competent to do
so, while refusing to even consider the possibility of standing your
ground with the client because you might lose ten quid profit.... that's
fine, there are a million other cowboy I "experts" out there just like
you, but if you think you can post to a public forum where one or two
people ARE professionals and yet not have them be allowed to observe that
you are a cowboy you are sadly mistaken.

I don't quite understand this paragraph - could you re-type it in
English please ? Well - I understand enough of it to glean that you are
accusing me of being a cowboy.

no, you have yourself proven beyond all possible doubt that you are
completely and utterly incompetent

I have merely commented upon that.

Post by Martin Slaney
Now that (to me) implies deception of
some kind.
What grounds do you have to accuse me of deceiving this bloke ?

duh

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
absolute rot, I know all that I need to know, it is a business.
it doesn't matter one iota if it is a one man band or a multinational,
many of the people in this newsgroup are little more than one man bands,
yet their work / business / clients / mony / times are probably more
important to them than to the ceo of a multinational.
that is ALL you need to know, that and having some pride in your work.
these people deserve the best you have to offer in exchange for their
folding green, the very best, not your bloody cowboy attitudes.

You do _not_ know all you need to know. Businesses are many and varied.

data is data is data is data is data....

it is either volatile or semi stable or permanent

backups are permanent data

backups of BUSINESS data are all equal, all should be to a certain minimum
standard, a standard that ANYONE with the slightest clue (not you
apparently) can provide from as little as four of five hundred quid over 3
years for a small business.

Post by Martin Slaney
You don't even listen to anyone else - do you ? You just trot out your
dogma. Pompous ass.

I'm right, everyone knows it, you're a cowboy so you can't admit it.
what else is there?

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
if you are so concerned about the poor bastards IT requirements being met
by APPROPRIATE solutions then tell the poor fucker he can junk windows
with

I'm no great fan of M$ bollocks either,

I'm not a fan of people who type "M$"
they invariably lack clue #1 abou what makes microsoft great

Post by Martin Slaney
but in this case there's no
choice.

bull fucking shit

there is ALWAYS a choice.

Post by Martin Slaney
He _requires_ Sage.

not true, but irellevant,sage is not the only application that performs in
that market segment

Post by Martin Slaney
Sage _only_ runs on M$ Windows (AFAIK).

never heard of wine then.....

and just how did we get from archives of backed up data to live data?
what is the connection?
or are you just desperately grabbing at any straw...

Post by Martin Slaney
He backs up the Sage data using a method endorsed and supported by Sage.

what, in a whole series of little bitty "0" and "1" ?
wow

<pulls back copies of sage docs and reads>

nope, can't find any reference to disk level file systems anywhere.....

Post by Martin Slaney
(If you really want - you can can substitute the word "archive" for
"backup" - its just that 99.9% of the rest of the world refers to this
particular Sage process as "backup").
I said that before, but you just didn't listen, as usual. That's because
you are a ......

http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=archive&action=Search
http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=backup&action=Search
you should note the points made at
http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=zip&action=Search
also

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
"pig-headed, one-dimensional,self-important, pompous ass"

and it sounds like you will go to your grave as such.

st peter will however be able to restore me from backed up data....
you on the other hand will be no more than resonant echoes.
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Guy Fawkes wrote:

LOL !!! There's some funny stuff in there GF - at least you have some
wit :-)

But you really are losing the plot now ......

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
He _requires_ Sage.

not true, but irellevant,sage is not the only application that performs in
that market segment

This bit's _really_ good. You - as his "IT errr ... consultant" would
tell him he's not allowed to use the industry-standard, principle
application that he's used for years, paid a fair bit of money for, and
has _every_ reason to continue using ?

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
Sage _only_ runs on M$ Windows (AFAIK).

never heard of wine then.....

Neat :-)



Right - I'm going to shut up now !!!! Honest !!!! (Slaps own wrist for
replying again).

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney
LOL !!! There's some funny stuff in there GF - at least you have some
wit :-)
But you really are losing the plot now ......

pot / kettle / black

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
He _requires_ Sage.

not true, but irellevant,sage is not the only application that performs
in that market segment

This bit's _really_ good. You - as his "IT errr ... consultant" would
tell him he's not allowed to use the industry-standard, principle
application that he's used for years, paid a fair bit of money for, and
has _every_ reason to continue using ?

did I say that?
no.
what I said was he did not REQUIRE the use of sage, he CHOSE to use sage,
sage is FAR from being the only (or even the best) accounting software out
there.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
Sage _only_ runs on M$ Windows (AFAIK).

never heard of wine then.....

Neat :-)

it is
http://www.winehq.org/
runs sage amongst many others.........

Post by Martin Slaney
Right - I'm going to shut up now !!!! Honest !!!! (Slaps own wrist for
replying again).

--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Paul-B
It continually amazes me that businesses who would go bust if they lost
their data look askance at spending a few hundred pounds to buy
something which would save their businesses if things went wrong. A
decent RAID board, 2 80Gb hard drives is going to add no more than £100
or so to a build. Throw in a 12/24Gb HP tape drive at around £200 and a
dozen tapes at a £4 a piece and £300 for Veritas (user-unfriendly but
the best) and you've got about as good an insurance policy as you could
want for under £700... not a lot to save your business.

esp not when you consider that 80% of businesses that suffer major data loss
(many times just through someone in their employ deleteing data) cease
trading within 12 months.
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Guy Fawkes
I have to say,

Do you now ?

Post by Guy Fawkes
for someone who admits they are selling their client a tool
to do a job you appear to know bugger all, hence coming in here asking for
advice instead of simply going out and doing what needs doing....
selling clients second user hard drives for what by definition is going to
be business data bloody reeks of incompetence... sorry, had to be said.

What is your _fucking_ problem ?

I've been at this game for quite a few years now - including
recommending/procuring h/w (which includes secondhand) for a few small
corporate clients - in all that time not _one_ of them has lost any
data to speak of. I continue to get referrals by word of mouth, and have
never been "sacked". I made a judgement that (from experience) a good
quality Intel-made BX chipset mobo in a "corporate" desktop machine is
likely to be just as reliable (if not more so) than a new machine.
New HD's are not necessarily any more reliable than used ones.

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
Its the other - less important - word, excel, e-mail data that I'm
concerning myself with - it'll grow .... CDR backup once/twice a week
should be fine for that.

backups are totally worthless unless they are both
a/ offsite and automated

automated ??? CRAP !!!

Post by Guy Fawkes
b/ ***proven*** to work from a virgin restore.

Already proved they work. Next attack ?

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
But anyway - the drive still needs to be as reliable as possible -
restoring from backups would cost quite a bit of downtime.

then WTF are you doing buying s/user drives and running anything less than
RAID 1 or preferably 5?

Why is RAID 5 more reliable than RAID 1 ? Hmmm ??
Come on fuckwit - elaborate.

Post by Guy Fawkes
hard drives are so bloody cheap nowadays, buy them direct, new.

Oh - so "new" HD's come with _data_ warranty do they ?

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
I've told him a tape sub-system, SCSI i/f, cost of Veritas, all the
setup etc. is probably not really appropriate.

because it isn't

Yes, that.

Post by Guy Fawkes
or because you dont know much about it and dont want to
touch it?

I've had a fair bit of truck with those things - my first ever HD in
1988 was SCSI - I've had tape drives since 1/4" 150MB - I've set up
Veritas and scheduled NTbackup jobs several times. But experience has
taught me that for many clients, simplicity is best.

For the amount of data involved, the client (who does not want a
contractual relationship with me or any other outfit) and other
circumstances (of which you know nothing, do you ?) a very basic
solution is best.

So bugger off and troll elsewhere.

Oh - and apologies to everyone else - this is now way OT.

[Ivorh]

Bugger me, Come on you lot. he only wanted some info......................
:-}}
--
Ivor
Suffolk, United Kingdom

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
I have to say,

Do you now ?

Post by Guy Fawkes
for someone who admits they are selling their client a tool
to do a job you appear to know bugger all, hence coming in here asking for
advice instead of simply going out and doing what needs doing....
selling clients second user hard drives for what by definition is going to
be business data bloody reeks of incompetence... sorry, had to be said.

What is your _fucking_ problem ?
I've been at this game for quite a few years now - including
recommending/procuring h/w (which includes secondhand) for a few small
corporate clients - in all that time not _one_ of them has lost any
data to speak of. I continue to get referrals by word of mouth, and have
never been "sacked". I made a judgement that (from experience) a good
quality Intel-made BX chipset mobo in a "corporate" desktop machine is
likely to be just as reliable (if not more so) than a new machine.
New HD's are not necessarily any more reliable than used ones.

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
Its the other - less important - word, excel, e-mail data that I'm
concerning myself with - it'll grow .... CDR backup once/twice a week
should be fine for that.

backups are totally worthless unless they are both
a/ offsite and automated

automated ??? CRAP !!!

Post by Guy Fawkes
b/ ***proven*** to work from a virgin restore.

Already proved they work. Next attack ?

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
But anyway - the drive still needs to be as reliable as possible -
restoring from backups would cost quite a bit of downtime.

then WTF are you doing buying s/user drives and running anything less than
RAID 1 or preferably 5?

Why is RAID 5 more reliable than RAID 1 ? Hmmm ??
Come on fuckwit - elaborate.

Post by Guy Fawkes
hard drives are so bloody cheap nowadays, buy them direct, new.

Oh - so "new" HD's come with _data_ warranty do they ?

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
I've told him a tape sub-system, SCSI i/f, cost of Veritas, all the
setup etc. is probably not really appropriate.

because it isn't

Yes, that.

Post by Guy Fawkes
or because you dont know much about it and dont want to
touch it?

I've had a fair bit of truck with those things - my first ever HD in
1988 was SCSI - I've had tape drives since 1/4" 150MB - I've set up
Veritas and scheduled NTbackup jobs several times. But experience has
taught me that for many clients, simplicity is best.
For the amount of data involved, the client (who does not want a
contractual relationship with me or any other outfit) and other
circumstances (of which you know nothing, do you ?) a very basic
solution is best.
So bugger off and troll elsewhere.
Oh - and apologies to everyone else - this is now way OT.

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Ivorh
Bugger me, Come on you lot. he only wanted some info......................
:-}}

Yeah - thats what I thought. Jeeeez .....

The first couple of folk to reply gave me the relevant info (I think) -
thanks Andy/Tez - although the links from there that explain in more
detail are now dead.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
I have to say,

Do you now ?

yup

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
for someone who admits they are selling their client a tool
to do a job you appear to know bugger all, hence coming in here asking
for advice instead of simply going out and doing what needs doing....
selling clients second user hard drives for what by definition is going
to be business data bloody reeks of incompetence... sorry, had to be
said.

What is your _fucking_ problem ?

I don't have a fucking problem, I fuck quite well...

*you* are the one coming into a hardware for sale group and asking for
advice for a commercial job.... you offering commission or consultancy
fees?

Post by Martin Slaney
I've been at this game for quite a few years now -

which just goes to prove the horse to water saying....

Post by Martin Slaney
including
recommending/procuring h/w (which includes secondhand) for a few small
corporate clients - in all that time not _one_ of them has lost any
data to speak of.

so, nobody has lost any data is the only criteria you have is it?
what happened to professionalism?

Post by Martin Slaney
I continue to get referrals by word of mouth, and have
never been "sacked". I made a judgement that (from experience) a good
quality Intel-made BX chipset mobo in a "corporate" desktop machine is
likely to be just as reliable (if not more so) than a new machine.

your judgement is sorely lacking then.

Post by Martin Slaney
New HD's are not necessarily any more reliable than used ones.

lol

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
Its the other - less important - word, excel, e-mail data that I'm
concerning myself with - it'll grow .... CDR backup once/twice a week
should be fine for that.

backups are totally worthless unless they are both
a/ offsite and automated

automated ??? CRAP !!!

if it ain't automated it doesn't happen, not crap, fact.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
b/ ***proven*** to work from a virgin restore.

Already proved they work. Next attack ?

how did you prove it?

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
But anyway - the drive still needs to be as reliable as possible -
restoring from backups would cost quite a bit of downtime.

then WTF are you doing buying s/user drives and running anything less
than RAID 1 or preferably 5?

Why is RAID 5 more reliable than RAID 1 ? Hmmm ??
Come on fuckwit - elaborate.

because it uses parity as well as mirroring, fuckwit....

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
hard drives are so bloody cheap nowadays, buy them direct, new.

Oh - so "new" HD's come with _data_ warranty do they ?

you should get a job at pissy world.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
I've told him a tape sub-system, SCSI i/f, cost of Veritas, all the
setup etc. is probably not really appropriate.

because it isn't

Yes, that.

Post by Guy Fawkes
or because you dont know much about it and dont want to
touch it?

I've had a fair bit of truck with those things - my first ever HD in
1988 was SCSI

wow, a real greybeard.... lol

Post by Martin Slaney
- I've had tape drives since 1/4" 150MB - I've set up
Veritas and scheduled NTbackup jobs several times. But experience has
taught me that for many clients, simplicity is best.

and you certainly appear to be simple

Post by Martin Slaney
For the amount of data involved, the client (who does not want a
contractual relationship with me or any other outfit) and other
circumstances (of which you know nothing, do you ?) a very basic
solution is best.

RAID ***is*** very basic.

Post by Martin Slaney
So bugger off and troll elsewhere.
Oh - and apologies to everyone else - this is now way OT.

it was when you started it........
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
I have to say,

Do you now ?

yup

Why ? You're techier than me, and you need to prove it - right ?

Post by Guy Fawkes
*you* are the one coming into a hardware for sale group and asking for
advice for a commercial job.... you offering commission or consultancy
fees?

No - it just seemed a (more or less) appropriate place to ask about a
syndrome I've heard about, but never really had any direct experience
of. I just never happened to encounter these particular drives before.

Post by Guy Fawkes
so, nobody has lost any data is the only criteria you have is it?

Well - its quite important and signifcant. My clients seem to think so
anyway.

Post by Guy Fawkes
what happened to professionalism?

Ah! You must mean the common practice of turning up in a suit, selling
the punter a load of over-elaborate kit by talking lots of techie
bullshit and using lots of acronyms, and charging _lots_ of luuuuvverly
money ?

I would say professionalism includes assessing what's appropiate (now
and further down the road) and making recommendations accordingly.

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
I continue to get referrals by word of mouth, and have
never been "sacked". I made a judgement that (from experience) a good
quality Intel-made BX chipset mobo in a "corporate" desktop machine is
likely to be just as reliable (if not more so) than a new machine.

your judgement is sorely lacking then.

No it isn't. Its based on real-world experience.

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
New HD's are not necessarily any more reliable than used ones.

lol

Well OK - I should have said used ones from reliable sources.

Post by Guy Fawkes
if it ain't automated it doesn't happen, not crap, fact.

There's that tendency, yes, I agree. BUT - not in this case.
The bloke has _religiously_ been backing up his Sage data for a long
time before I came on the scene. He's not very techie, but he fully
_understands_ the need for backup - and _does_ it. Always. Geddit ?

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
b/ ***proven*** to work from a virgin restore.

Already proved they work. Next attack ?

how did you prove it?

By reverting to a state of "bare metal + backup media only" and getting
back a 100% working system. At least 3 times, for different reasons.



Baaahh !!! Enough of this ....... I have better things to do.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
I have to say,

Do you now ?

yup

Why ? You're techier than me, and you need to prove it - right ?

no, because you post in the public domain, therefore you have to expect
comment.....

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
*you* are the one coming into a hardware for sale group and asking for
advice for a commercial job.... you offering commission or consultancy
fees?

No - it just seemed a (more or less) appropriate place to ask about a
syndrome I've heard about, but never really had any direct experience
of. I just never happened to encounter these particular drives before.

really?
what part of "uk.ADVERTS.computer" do you feel is an appropriate place for
mass storage tech support and resources?

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
so, nobody has lost any data is the only criteria you have is it?

Well - its quite important and signifcant. My clients seem to think so
anyway.

Post by Guy Fawkes
what happened to professionalism?

Ah! You must mean the common practice of turning up in a suit, selling
the punter a load of over-elaborate kit by talking lots of techie
bullshit and using lots of acronyms, and charging _lots_ of luuuuvverly
money ?

err, no.

Post by Martin Slaney
I would say professionalism includes assessing what's appropiate (now
and further down the road) and making recommendations accordingly.

there is a (good) saying, it goes "you are only as good as your last job"

the sort of job you have described here kinda demolishes any air of
professionalism about your work.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
I continue to get referrals by word of mouth, and have
never been "sacked". I made a judgement that (from experience) a good
quality Intel-made BX chipset mobo in a "corporate" desktop machine is
likely to be just as reliable (if not more so) than a new machine.

your judgement is sorely lacking then.

No it isn't. Its based on real-world experience.

aye, fuck all real world experience, several years buggering about with
cheapo desktop muck doesn't constitute real world experience.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
New HD's are not necessarily any more reliable than used ones.

lol

Well OK - I should have said used ones from reliable sources.

based on WHAT????

you seriously suggest that spindle bearings with unknown tens of thousands
of hours on them and platters with "stiffer" magneto-resistivity and worn
head tracking mechanisms are somehow NOT inferior to brand new units of
superior design and manufacture with zero wear???

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
if it ain't automated it doesn't happen, not crap, fact.

There's that tendency, yes, I agree. BUT - not in this case.
The bloke has _religiously_ been backing up his Sage data for a long
time before I came on the scene. He's not very techie, but he fully
_understands_ the need for backup - and _does_ it. Always. Geddit ?

you have just shown a complete lack of understanding of one of the most
basic principle of data backup, namely it exists to get you out of the shit
when everything else coincidentally conspires to create a "perfect storm"
scenario.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
b/ ***proven*** to work from a virgin restore.

Already proved they work. Next attack ?

how did you prove it?

By reverting to a state of "bare metal + backup media only" and getting
back a 100% working system. At least 3 times, for different reasons.

so you know that a grand total of 3 out of the possibly hundreds of
incremental copies of backed up data work, you can therefore say nothing
about every other iteration.

that isn't a backup, it's just an archive.

Post by Martin Slaney
Baaahh !!! Enough of this ....... I have better things to do.

study for your msce no doubt (sic)
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
No - it just seemed a (more or less) appropriate place to ask about a
syndrome I've heard about, but never really had any direct experience
of. I just never happened to encounter these particular drives before.

really?
what part of "uk.ADVERTS.computer" do you feel is an appropriate place for
mass storage tech support and resources?

The part where people here are constantly buying, selling HD's, and are
therefore almost certain to encounter a wider variety of different
brands and models of HD's, and where issues such as RMA would seem (to
me) to be on-topic. The Fujitsu business has been discussed in here before.

Post by Guy Fawkes
aye, fuck all real world experience, several years buggering about with
cheapo desktop muck doesn't constitute real world experience.

<sigh> if you say so, master .....

Post by Guy Fawkes
based on WHAT????
you seriously suggest that spindle bearings with unknown tens of thousands
of hours on them and platters with "stiffer" magneto-resistivity and worn
head tracking mechanisms are somehow NOT inferior to brand new units of
superior design and manufacture with zero wear???

You mean like the 10/20GB Fujitsu drives ? - those were "new" once ...
Or the IBM "deathstars" - when _they_ were "new" ?

Post by Guy Fawkes
you have just shown a complete lack of understanding of one of the most
basic principle of data backup, namely it exists to get you out of the shit
when everything else coincidentally conspires to create a "perfect storm"
scenario.

Riiight ... well I think I'd better alert my client to the fact that
he's not protected against the "perfect storm scenario" - and maybe I'd
better recommend you as a superior IT consultant <g>.

This errr ... scenario. Lets say the server in question (and all on-site
backups) is vapourised by an IRA bomb raising the entire building to
rubble. The off-site backups get malicously hosed by someone with a
tape-head de-magger. The second off-site backups get physically
destroyed by a fire. (How many sets of off-sites do you have? ) The
disaster recovery centre you have hired is hit by a 747 with full fuel
tanks.
All this happens within a timeframe of 2 minutes. How does your
recommended strategy deal with this ?

(Ah - I know - the disaster recovery centre is 1/2 mile underground :-)
that it ? )

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
By reverting to a state of "bare metal + backup media only" and getting
back a 100% working system. At least 3 times, for different reasons.

so you know that a grand total of 3 out of the possibly hundreds of
incremental copies of backed up data work, you can therefore say nothing
about every other iteration.
that isn't a backup, it's just an archive.

I dare say you're right - and its certainly not a backup method I would
recommend - in principle. But those damn ZIP disks as "backups" get
proven on a daily basis, as he usually restores the off-site ones to his
home machine to work on/peruse after the office. Its what he wants. He's
the client - not you.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes
you have just shown a complete lack of understanding of one of the most
basic principle of data backup, namely it exists to get you out of the
shit when everything else coincidentally conspires to create a "perfect
storm" scenario.

Riiight ... well I think I'd better alert my client to the fact that
he's not protected against the "perfect storm scenario" - and maybe I'd
better recommend you as a superior IT consultant <g>.

maybe you'd better...

Post by Martin Slaney
This errr ... scenario. Lets say the server in question (and all on-site
backups) is vapourised by an IRA bomb raising the entire building to
rubble. The off-site backups get malicously hosed by someone with a
tape-head de-magger. The second off-site backups get physically
destroyed by a fire. (How many sets of off-sites do you have? ) The
disaster recovery centre you have hired is hit by a 747 with full fuel
tanks.
All this happens within a timeframe of 2 minutes. How does your
recommended strategy deal with this ?

I have seen EXACTLY the multi off site scenario you describe hosed twice in
my own personal experience..... once was a brownout and resultant HVAC
failure taking out the two live centres and a flaky sprinkler system hosed
the passive backup tapes, the other time was a time bomb left by a
malicious employee, it destroyed the passive backups as soon as they were
brought back online...

I have met many other techs with similar stories.

just cos something is unlikely doesn't mean it will never happen, it just
means when it does happen it is going to hit real hard and it will be too
late to do anything....

Post by Martin Slaney
(Ah - I know - the disaster recovery centre is 1/2 mile underground :-)
that it ? )

nope (though there are facilities available in ex nuclear bunkers) just a
tech with a brain and some experience of data backup / recovery scenarios.

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Guy Fawkes

Post by Martin Slaney
By reverting to a state of "bare metal + backup media only" and getting
back a 100% working system. At least 3 times, for different reasons.

so you know that a grand total of 3 out of the possibly hundreds of
incremental copies of backed up data work, you can therefore say nothing
about every other iteration.
that isn't a backup, it's just an archive.

I dare say you're right - and its certainly not a backup method I would
recommend - in principle. But those damn ZIP disks as "backups" get
proven on a daily basis, as he usually restores the off-site ones to his
home machine to work on/peruse after the office. Its what he wants. He's
the client - not you.

if a client of mine tells me he wants to do something stupid like using
single second hand IDE disks for business data I simply refuse and tell
them to get someone else to do it because I will not because I will not do
such shit work, at any price.

You're only as good as your last job.
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Paul-B]

Post by Guy Fawkes
if a client of mine tells me he wants to do something stupid like
using single second hand IDE disks for business data I simply refuse
and tell them to get someone else to do it because I will not because
I will not do such shit work, at any price.
You're only as good as your last job.

Exactly! The same with me, I don't want or need the pain which comes
from giving-in to the cheapskates. There is always some cowboy who will
do it cheaper... great, until something goes wrong. And those of us who
are good at what we do don't need this kind of business anyway.

[Jay]

If this system is at all important (not even needing to reach the
"critical" levels), why on earth take the risk?

Buy a different brand HDD, ghost it, format and sell the fujitsu for
whatever you can get. You get peace of mind.

Your reputation is worth far more than a 100gig HDD, surely?

jay

[Jay]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:03:14 +0000 (UTC), Jay

Post by Jay
Your reputation is worth far more than a 100gig HDD, surely?

And certainly more than a 20gig one - my oversight.

jay

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Jay
If this system is at all important (not even needing to reach the
"critical" levels), why on earth take the risk?
Buy a different brand HDD, ghost it, format and sell the fujitsu for
whatever you can get. You get peace of mind.

Well I may very well do that.

Post by Jay
Your reputation is worth far more than a 100gig HDD, surely?

Sure.

[Mike Tomlinson]

Post by Martin Slaney
BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -

It's the MPG series that are hooky, and I've had several of the 20Gb
ones fail. The MPF series *seem* to be okay.

[Martin Slaney]

Post by Mike Tomlinson

Post by Martin Slaney
BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -

It's the MPG series that are hooky, and I've had several of the 20Gb
ones fail. The MPF series *seem* to be okay.

Thank you Mike. This is the kind of reply I was hoping for. Like I said,
I had a vague memory of this - but couldn't be sure - and the info seems
to have evaporated somewhat.

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Martin Slaney

Post by Mike Tomlinson

Post by Martin Slaney
BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -

It's the MPG series that are hooky, and I've had several of the 20Gb
ones fail. The MPF series *seem* to be okay.

Thank you Mike. This is the kind of reply I was hoping for. Like I said,
I had a vague memory of this - but couldn't be sure - and the info seems
to have evaporated somewhat.

perhaps it was archived on second user disks.........
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Guy Fawkes]

Post by Mike Tomlinson

Post by Martin Slaney
BUT - the replacement turns out to be a .... Fujitsu MPF3204AT -

It's the MPG series that are hooky, and I've had several of the 20Gb
ones fail. The MPF series *seem* to be okay.

however the *attitude* of fujitsu was enough for me to give them a blanket
negative recommendation ever since.... nothing has happened to change that.
--
Merry Yule
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/christmascard.jpg
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/images/bagsanta.jpg

Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

[Martin Slaney]

Well Mr. Guy Fawkes - congratulations on a successful troll.

More fool me for getting baited :-)

I'm sure you will want to have the last word in this thread - trolls
usually do.

So - be my guest.